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Thread: Income Based ESA Applying For PIP, Moved To Universal Credit?

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    Question Income Based ESA Applying For PIP, Moved To Universal Credit?

    I am currently receiving Income Based ESA and I am in the work related activity group, I am looking to apply for PIP, does anyone know if this would move me to universal credit? I have been in contact with citizens advice but was told they couldn't advise me one way or the other.

    Thank you in advance for any help given

  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    UC is a means tested benefit, PIP isn't means tested and has nothing to do with UC.

    Just claiming PIP will not mean that you also have to claim UC.

    If you live alone and nobody claims Carers Allowance for looking after you then getting PIP Dailing Living would also increase the money that you get in IR ESA.

    So if you believe that you qualify for PIP then go ahead and calim it.

    I have no idea what CAB were talking about, this is basic stuff that they should know.
    (Of course they are getting paid for running the DWPs 'Help to claim UC', so some believe they are now a bit biased when giving advice about UC).
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    UC is a means tested benefit, PIP isn't means tested and has nothing to do with UC.

    Just claiming PIP will not mean that you also have to claim UC.

    If you live alone and nobody claims Carers Allowance for looking after you then getting PIP Dailing Living would also increase the money that you get in IR ESA.

    So if you believe that you qualify for PIP then go ahead and calim it.

    I have no idea what CAB were talking about, this is basic stuff that they should know.
    (Of course they are getting paid for running the DWPs 'Help to claim UC', so some believe they are now a bit biased when giving advice about UC).
    Thank you for the reply, my partner currently get's carers allowance for our disabled son, the esa that I get is a joint claim between me and my partner, my main concern is that if I claim anything else I don't want to get moved to universal credit due to the possibility of being awarded less money than I am already on, through no fault of my own.

  4. #4
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Making a claim for PIP does not mean that you have to claim UC.

    However from what you say there then I would expect you to get much more money with UC than you are currently getting with IR ESA.
    So in your circumstances it's probably time to consider whether to move yourself over, (Voluntary Migration), rather than waiting until the DWP tell you that you have to, (Mandatory/Managed Migration).

    As your local CAB seem to be being useless I've done a comparision for you:

    From what you have said I make it that you currently get IR ESA WRAG as a couple, and because of your wifes CA you should have a Carer Premium included with that.
    Whether or not you are being paid for WRAG depends on if you claimed ESA before 3rd April 2017.
    For the moment I'll assume that you did and are being paid for the WRAG and so with WRAG and Carer Element you are entitled to IR ESA of £190.50 a week.
    Of course your wife's CA of £69.70 gets deducted from the ESA as income, so that should currently give you £120.80 a week IR ESA being paid.
    Please let me know if that isn't what you are getting.

    Your wife gets CA for looking after your son, and possibly Child Benefit.
    Your son may have Child DLA. (It would be helpful to know how old he is, and if he does get DLA what rate of daily living. Plus do you have other children).
    You may have Housing Benefit?

    In a migration to UC the only things that would be migrated are the IR ESA and the Housing Benefit, the rest would continue as they are.
    Any Housing Benefit will change to a UC Housing Element and pay the same amount.

    So it's really only the IR ESA that we need to look at, because all the rest would stay as they are.

    The calculated monthly equivalent of your IR ESA is £524.91 a month (£120.80 x 52.143/12).

    With UC you should get: (I've used the lowest amounts, but shown possible higher one in brackets).
    £ 525.72 Standard Allowance, couple over 25.
    £ 132.89 LCW Element. (Only paid if you were already getting paid for ESA WRAG).
    £ 244.58 Child amount. (First child born after 6 April 2017 - it will be £290.00 if he's older). (A second child is another £244.58).
    £ 132.89 Disabled Child addition, lower rate care of DLA. (It will be £414.88 if he has the higher rate care of DLA).
    £ 168.81 Carer Element, because of your wifes CA.
    £ ???.?? Housing Element, the same amount as any HB you currently get.
    £1251.81 UC entitlement, (plus any Housing Element).
    £-302.03 Deduction because your wife's CA counts as 'unearned income'. (Just like it does for IR ESA).
    £ 949.78 UC payable each month, (plus any Housing Element)

    Obviously I have had to make a few assumptions there, in particular that your son has DLA, but
    even using the lowest UC rates I calculate that you could expect to get UC that is almost double what you are currently getting paid as IR ESA. (It's an 81% increase).
    Carers Allowance, Child Benefit, and DLA all stay outside of UC and would continue to be paid as they are now.

    If you would like to clarify a few details, ie.
    • your sons age and if he does have DLA what rate,
    • any other chidren, their ages,
    • whether you do get paid the WRAG in ESA or not,
    • that you are both over 25,
    • if you do get housing benefit, although as you can see that stays the same in UC anyway.
    • any other benefits or income that I'm not aware of,

    With that extra information I can refine the above calculations to give a more exact figure for your particular circumstances.

    PS. We did used to previously advise that you avoid moving to UC unless you had to.
    But things change and now the process is much smoother and it can be worth doing it yourself for various reasons, not least if you are going to get more money coming in.
    I moved myself from IR ESA WRAG onto UC last November. No extra money for me but there were another couple of advantages such as monthly instead of fortnightly payments. (although not forgetting there's a 2-week run on of both ESA and HB when you move to UC, so you get double benefits for those 2 weeks).

    The one circumstance where you should never consider doing it yourself is if you have the Severe Disability Premium (SDP) with ESA or another benefit.
    If you do have SDP then wait for the letter from the DWP telling you that you have to move.
    Last edited by nukecad; 13-05-22 at 08:39.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    Making a claim for PIP does not mean that you have to claim UC.

    However from what you say there then I would expect you to get much more money with UC than you are currently getting with IR ESA.
    So in your circumstances it's probably time to consider whether to move yourself over, (Voluntary Migration), rather than waiting until the DWP tell you that you have to, (Mandatory/Managed Migration).

    As your local CAB seem to be being useless I've done a comparision for you:

    From what you have said I make it that you currently get IR ESA WRAG as a couple, and because of your wifes CA you should have a Carer Premium included with that.
    Whether or not you are being paid for WRAG depends on if you claimed ESA before 3rd April 2017.
    For the moment I'll assume that you did and are being paid for the WRAG and so with WRAG and Carer Element you are entitled to IR ESA of £190.50 a week.
    Of course your wife's CA of £69.70 gets deducted from the ESA as income, so that should currently give you £120.80 a week IR ESA being paid.
    Please let me know if that isn't what you are getting.

    Your wife gets CA for looking after your son, and possibly Child Benefit.
    Your son may have Child DLA. (It would be helpful to know how old he is, and if he does get DLA what rate of daily living. Plus do you have other children).
    You may have Housing Benefit?

    In a migration to UC the only things that would be migrated are the IR ESA and the Housing Benefit, the rest would continue as they are.
    Any Housing Benefit will change to a UC Housing Element and pay the same amount.

    So it's really only the IR ESA that we need to look at, because all the rest would stay as they are.

    The calculated monthly equivalent of your IR ESA is £524.91 a month (£120.80 x 52.143/12).

    With UC you should get: (I've used the lowest amounts, but shown possible higher one in brackets).
    £ 525.72 Standard Allowance, couple over 25.
    £ 132.89 LCW Element. (Only paid if you were already getting paid for ESA WRAG).
    £ 244.58 Child amount. (First child born after 6 April 2017 - it will be £290.00 if he's older). (A second child is another £244.58).
    £ 132.89 Disabled Child addition, lower rate care of DLA. (It will be £414.88 if he has the higher rate care of DLA).
    £ 168.81 Carer Element, because of your wifes CA.
    £ ???.?? Housing Element, the same amount as any HB you currently get.
    £1251.81 UC entitlement, (plus any Housing Element).
    £-302.03 Deduction because your wife's CA counts as 'unearned income'. (Just like it does for IR ESA).
    £ 949.78 UC payable each month, (plus any Housing Element)

    Obviously I have had to make a few assumptions there, in particular that your son has DLA, but
    even using the lowest UC rates I calculate that you could expect to get UC that is almost double what you are currently getting paid as IR ESA. (It's an 81% increase).
    Carers Allowance, Child Benefit, and DLA all stay outside of UC and would continue to be paid as they are now.

    If you would like to clarify a few details, ie.
    • your sons age and if he does have DLA what rate,
    • any other chidren, their ages,
    • whether you do get paid the WRAG in ESA or not,
    • that you are both over 25,
    • if you do get housing benefit, although as you can see that stays the same in UC anyway.
    • any other benefits or income that I'm not aware of,

    With that extra information I can refine the above calculations to give a more exact figure for your particular circumstances.

    PS. We did used to previously advise that you avoid moving to UC unless you had to.
    But things change and now the process is much smoother and it can be worth doing it yourself for various reasons, not least if you are going to get more money coming in.
    I moved myself from IR ESA WRAG onto UC last November. No extra money for me but there were another couple of advantages such as monthly instead of fortnightly payments. (although not forgetting there's a 2-week run on of both ESA and HB when you move to UC, so you get double benefits for those 2 weeks).

    The one circumstance where you should never consider doing it yourself is if you have the Severe Disability Premium (SDP) with ESA or another benefit.
    If you do have SDP then wait for the letter from the DWP telling you that you have to move.
    I appreciate your time and depth of reply so thank you for the help

    I applied and was accepted on to WRAG several years before 3rd April 2017

    My 1st child is 12, recieving highest rate DLA but no mobility element
    My second child is 8

    We get child benefit and child tax credits for both children, we also get housing benefit

    Me and my partner are over the age of 25

    None of the household get or have had Severe Disability Premium (SDP)

    I have used the Turn2us calculator which shows I would get £2168.53 per month but due to the UC limit I would get £1866.50 per month which is about £90 less than I get now a month, i'm aware that this is before any PIP element but I thought I would show what I had found

    I'm fine with being paid weekly, fortnightly or monthly

    If you require any more information please let me know

  6. #6
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    I have used the Turn2us calculator which shows I would get £2168.53 per month but due to the UC limit I would get £1866.50 per month
    I hadn't realised that the Benefit Cap (UC limit) was coming into play here?

    It shouldn't be - The Benefits Cap should not be applied if you have a child with DLA. Your wifes CA also exempts you from the cap.
    https://www.gov.uk/benefit-cap/when-youre-not-affected

    Has the Turn2us calculator applied the cap when it shouldn't have done?
    or is Turn2us correct and it's someone else who told you that the cap would apply in UC?

    Think about it logically, if the cap was being applied already then whether you moved to UC or not the cap doesn't change so your money wouldn't change.
    (Well actually your money would increase, because some things that are capped outside of UC are not subject to the cap when in UC, eg. ESA WRAG is subject to the cap but the LCW Element in UC isn't).
    Last edited by nukecad; 14-05-22 at 09:52.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

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    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    With the fuller information I've revised the above calculation and now get:

    £ 525.72 Standard Allowance, couple over 25.
    £ 132.89 LCW Element.
    £ 290.00 Child amount. (First Child born before April 2017)
    £ 244.58 Child amount. (Second child).
    £ 414.88 Disabled Child addition, Higher rate.
    £ 168.81 Carer Element, because of your wifes CA.
    £ ???.?? Housing Element, the same amount as the HB you currently get. (Maybe slightly more because some service charges can be included).
    £1776.88 UC entitlement, plus the Housing Element.
    £-302.03 Deduction because your wife's CA counts as 'unearned income'. (Just like it does for IR ESA)
    £1474.85 UC payable each month, plus the Housing Element.

    I assume that when you add the Housing Element it will take it up to the £2,168 that the calculator gave you.
    (Unless it's a while since you did that in which case the UC rates, and your rent, will have gone up).

    Of course as well as your IR ESA and Housing Benefit, the Child Tax Credits will also stop when you claim UC.

    The Child Benefit, Carers Allowance, and DLA will continue to be paid as they are.

    If you apply for and get PIP yourself that will also be paid outside of UC, and will not affect UC payments.
    Last edited by nukecad; 14-05-22 at 09:26.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    With the fuller information I've revised the above calculation and now get:

    £ 525.72 Standard Allowance, couple over 25.
    £ 132.89 LCW Element.
    £ 290.00 Child amount. (First Child born before April 2017)
    £ 244.58 Child amount. (Second child).
    £ 414.88 Disabled Child addition, Higher rate.
    £ 168.81 Carer Element, because of your wifes CA.
    £ ???.?? Housing Element, the same amount as the HB you currently get. (Maybe slightly more because some service charges can be included).
    £1776.88 UC entitlement, plus the Housing Element.
    £-302.03 Deduction because your wife's CA counts as 'unearned income'. (Just like it does for IR ESA)
    £1474.85 UC payable each month, plus the Housing Element.

    I assume that when you add the Housing Element it will take it up to the £2,168 that the calculator gave you.
    (Unless it's a while since you did that in which case the UC rates, and your rent, will have gone up).

    Of course as well as your IR ESA and Housing Benefit, the Child Tax Credits will also stop when you claim UC.

    The Child Benefit, Carers Allowance, and DLA will continue to be paid as they are.

    If you apply for and get PIP yourself that will also be paid outside of UC, and will not affect UC payments.
    I believe the Turn2us calculator website is wrong as the official link you have given (gov) clearly shows it wouldn't cause us to hit the benefit cap.

    Thank you for the calculations, i'm going to talk to my other half now I have figures to work with.

  9. #9
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I've just run the Turn2us Calculator and it agrees with my figures above.
    (Although it is pennies out on all of the UC elements except the standard allowance - which is very odd because those are published figures so how do you get them wrong).

    I used £694 as the figure for applicable rent and it gave a total UC of £2,168.83, it correctly shows the benefit cap as being £0.00

    So I'm not sure why it showed you the UC being capped when you used it?

    There is one thing though; we haven't talked about any savings or capital.
    If you have savings/capital of between £6,000 and £16,000 then that would reduce the amount of UC that you can get.
    However if that applied here it would already be reducing IR ESA and Housing Benefit, and you haven't mentioned that happening.
    (Tax Credits are not subject to the savings rules).
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    I've just run the Turn2us Calculator and it agrees with my figures above.
    (Although it is pennies out on all of the UC elements except the standard allowance - which is very odd because those are published figures so how do you get them wrong).

    I used £694 as the figure for applicable rent and it gave a total UC of £2,168.83, it correctly shows the benefit cap as being £0.00

    So I'm not sure why it showed you the UC being capped when you used it?

    There is one thing though; we haven't talked about any savings or capital.
    If you have savings/capital of between £6,000 and £16,000 then that would reduce the amount of UC that you can get.
    However if that applied here it would already be reducing IR ESA and Housing Benefit, and you haven't mentioned that happening.
    (Tax Credits are not subject to the savings rules).
    My turn2us reference is: KE9-88S-UUG if you could find out which bit is different or could figure out why it's coming up different i'd appreciate it but no problem if not

    Could I have the reference that you made if you still have it

    Whenever it's the gov who publish figures and a second place uses them they always seem to be off by a bit, I don't know why either

    My rent is £94 a week and I don't have any savings

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