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Thread: Passed WCA and put into LCWRA group. When shouldl I receive first payment?

  1. #1

    Passed WCA and put into LCWRA group. When shouldl I receive first payment?

    Hi All!

    I was on JSA and took a 13 week extended period of sickness in March. By June I was still sick and moved to UC with a 3 month fit note in hand. I had my WCA in August and was put into the LCWRA group in September.
    I believe there is a 3 month waiting period before receiving the extra payment for LCWRA but when does it begin?
    I am being told by UC that I won't receive my first extra payment until December and it will not be backdated to any date before December even though I have been handing in fit notes since March.

  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    That doesn't sound right, and I suspect whoever you were talking to is getting mixed up or doesn't know the rules properly.

    It's not unusual with UC, UC is still pretty new in some areas and the Work Coaches don't have a lot of experience with LCW/LCWRA, they are slowly getting better but until they do.....

    The JSA sickness period could complicate things a bit, but ignoring that and just concentrating on the UC.

    As you say, with UC there is a 3 'clear' month waiting period from when you make a new Limited Capability application until you get any group payment added.
    (Similar to the 13 weeks waiting with ESA claims).

    So if you applied for Limited Capability as soon as you made your UC claim in June then the waiting period is 3 months from when you made that application for Limited Capability. (Which would be August, the date 3 months after you claimed/applied for Limited Capability).

    If it was later that you applied for Limited Capability then it would be 3 clear months from that date.

    When you had the WCA and/or when the actual decision was made does not matter at all, it's when you applied for UC-LC that matters.

    So your LCWRA element should be backdated to 3 months after you first applied for it.

    I suspect that whoever you were talking to knows about the 3 months, but thinks that it's from the decision date. (So they think September +3 = December payment).
    Work Coaches don't make these determinations so often are not very clear about the rules, your Case Mananger does that and should know the rules.

    Wait and see what you get paid next time and if the backpay (to about August) is not there then is the time to kick up a fuss.

    Like I say above I'm not sure if the JSA sickness period can be included in the 3 months.
    It could be with an ESA claim, but I don't think that it is with UC.
    In most cases UC acts as if JSA never existed so takes no account of it at all.

    I'd wait to see your next payment and then if needed concentrate on getting the correct UC backpayment.
    Last edited by nukecad; 11-10-18 at 14:54.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

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  3. #3
    Thanks for your reply Nukecad and for confirming that it's not me going crazy!

    Believe it or not, this is actually a person at the UC Service Centre who I've been talking to so they should know their stuff!

    First of all, when I got the WCA decision I couldn't understand why they said the award begins from September as I would have expected it to start from August.

    Yes I did apply for LC as soon as I made the UC claim (well I think I did....I left it up to the work coaches. I handed my fit note in so I assumed they knew what they were doing more than I did!).

    To be honest, since my UC claim began in June with the fit note, I expected payment to begin from September (ie, it would appear in Octobers payment since it is paid in arrears). Octobers pay date is tomorrow and the extra amount is not showing which is why I have been querying this with the UC Service Centre.

    I wasn't sure if the JSA period would be included in any case but they have surely got it wrong if they are saying payments will only begin from December and will not be backdated.

  4. #4
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoPainNoGain View Post
    Yes I did apply for LC as soon as I made the UC claim (well I think I did....I left it up to the work coaches. I handed my fit note in so I assumed they knew what they were doing more than I did!).
    Mmmm, it's possible that you didn't then, but that would only make one months difference.

    The guidance says:
    In most circumstances, if you remain unable to work due to your health conditions for 4 weeks, you will be referred for a WCA on the 29th day of your claim.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...alth-condition

    In which case the date of that referal would be the start of the 3 months.

    The date when they sent you a UC50 could be important there, you must have been referred before they send you one of those.

    If you are not geting anywhere with them then give another shout and I'll see if I can dig up the legislation or ADM guidance to support you.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

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  5. #5
    Hi Nukecad,

    I rang the UC service centre again to see if speaking to a different person would get me a diferent answer but it didn't.

    They are still telling me the 3 months wait starts from the date of the LCWRA reward (ie: September) and then in December I will not receive any back payment.

    Again I was told "it's the Law"!

    If you could provide some information that could prove this is not the case then I would be most grateful thanks.

  6. #6
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    The phone jockeys wouldn't know what the law was if it bit them on the backside.

    I'll have a look for something official to throw at them, best if I can find an example in their own guidance (and there should be one).

    In the meantime just to back up what we are saying, take a look here:
    https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Un...ity_Assessment
    In most cases, the LCW or LCWRA element will not be included in your Universal Credit award straight away. There is a three month waiting period which will begin when you provide evidence of having limited capability for work.
    When you provide evidence, ie. Fit Notes, not the decision date.
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  7. #7
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    Is this it? From Advice for Decision Making
    https://assets.publishing.service.go...1568/admf5.pdf

    Relevant period
    F5030 The LCWRA element is not included in an award of UC until the first day of the assessment period following the assessment period in which the relevant period ends1. But see F5040 et seq for exceptions to this rule.
    1 UC Regs, reg 28(1)
    F5031 The relevant period is three months beginning1
    1. in relevant threshold cases2 (where the claimant has weekly earnings at or above the relevant threshold and is entitled to DLA or PIP), on
    1.1 the first day of the award of UC or
    1.2 if later, the date on which the claimant applies for the LCWRA element to be included in the award or
    2. in any other case3, on the first day on which the claimant provides medical evidence of LCW4.
    Note 1: See ADM Chapter G1 (Work capability assessment) for guidance on relevant threshold cases.
    Note 2: Medical evidence includes a self-certificate for the first seven days of LCW.
    1 UC Regs, reg 28(2); 2 reg 28(2)(a) & 41(3); 3 reg 28(2)(b); 4 SS (Med Ev) Regs
    Example 1
    Dom is entitled to UC. His assessment period begins on the 5th of every month. Dom contacts the Department on 17.11.15 to say that he is unwell due to mental health problems. He sends in a doctor’s statement signed on 2.12.15 which states that Dom is not fit for work due to anxiety and depression. Dom is referred for assessment, and is found to have LCWRA.
    The relevant period begins on 17.11.15, the date he first gave evidence of LCW, and ends on 16.2.16. The LCWRA element is included in Dom’s UC award from 5.3.16.
    Last edited by pmlindyloo; 17-10-18 at 15:25.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Here we are, throw this reference at them if needed:

    EDIT- I see Pmlindy beat me to it this time round.

    Advice for Decision Makers (ADM), Chapter F5, sections F5030, F5031, and Example 1.

    https://assets.publishing.service.go...1568/admf5.pdf

    You shouldn't need to quote the text at them, but here it is:
    Relevant period

    F5030 The LCWRA element is not included in an award of UC until the
    first day of the assessment period following the assessment period
    in which the relevant period ends. But see F5040 et seq for exceptions to this rule.

    F5031 The relevant period is three months beginning
    1. in relevant threshold cases (where the claimant has weekly earnings at or above the relevant threshold and is entitled to DLA or PIP), on
    1.1 the first day of the award of UC or
    1.2 if later, the date on which the claimant applies for the LCWRA element to be included in the award or

    2. in any other case, on the first day on which the claimant provides medical evidence of LCW.

    Note 1: See ADM Chapter G1 (Work capability assessment) for guidance on relevant threshold cases.

    Note 2: Medical evidence includes a self-certificate for the first seven days of LCW.

    Example 1

    Dom is entitled to UC. His assessment period begins on the 5th of every month.
    Dom contacts the Department on 17.11.15 to say that he is unwell due to mental
    health problems. He sends in a doctor’s statement signed on 2.12.15 which states
    that Dom is not fit for work due to anxiety and depression. Dom is referred for
    assessment, and is found to have LCWRA.

    The relevant period begins on 17.11.15, the date he first gave evidence of LCW,
    and ends on 16.2.16. The LCWRA element is included in Dom’s UC award from
    5.3.16.
    All of that says the 3 months (the Relevant Period) starts from when you first supplied Fit Notes to your UC claim, and not from the LCWRA decision date as the phone jockeys are saying.

    I'm still not sure if the time sick on JSA should be included. It's one of those funny situations that doesn't seem to be covered anywhere.
    (I'm not sure why you moved from JSA to UC, 6 months CB JSA running out?).
    I don't think it will be included, but I'd get the UC sorted first and then maybe think about that JSA period. (or just forget it).

    I could dig up the actual legislation for that UC waiting time as well, but the DWP should recognise their own guidance without need of that.
    (The guidance is there so that the DMs don't have to trawl through the legislation).
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

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  9. #9
    Many thanks for your help nukecad and pmlindyloo.

    I will go armed to the UC Service Centre with this info and hope I get further this time!

    Btw, I moved from JSA because I am in a UC full service area so any changes such as becoming ill means moving from an old benefit to UC.

  10. #10
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoPainNoGain View Post
    Btw, I moved from JSA because I am in a UC full service area so any changes such as becoming ill means moving from an old benefit to UC.
    That is not correct, but it's too late to do anything about it now you have claimed UC.

    It happens, welfare advisors see it happening all the time, but it's difficult to make a court case to challenge it.
    There's no way to prove you were given incorrect advice by the Jobcentre, it's always verbal and never in writing.

    To be generous, the DWP frontline staff are only telling you what they have been told by their 'bosses' - so they believe that what they are telling you is true.

    Only making a brand new claim for an IR benefit means you have to make a UC claim.
    Becoming sick on an existing claim does not do that. (Unless someone cons you into it).

    The main reason for making a brand new claim for an IR benefit is moving house to a different Local Authority area, or if a Contribution Based benefit runs out after a set time.

    Sorry, but once you do make a UC claim then that's it, you are on UC.
    Last edited by nukecad; 17-10-18 at 22:08.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

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