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Thread: claimant commitment

  1. #1
    brightonbelle
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    claimant commitment

    I know I keep banging on about future "potential" changes.


    post 8 "claimant commitments for ESA claimants will be introduced in the Autumn"


    http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/11020/



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  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I found the powerpoint slides in post 4 interesting.

    Phrases like- "The Government’s ambition is..." and "it also wants to...".
    Plenty of "mays" and "will be's"

    And this from slide 10:
    Regulations will be laid in summer 2017 to support the introduction of the Claimant Commitment.
    So its a case of-
    "We have no law to back these mandatory Health and Work Conversations up yet, but we are going roll them out anyway".

    Like it says in that thread I can see there are going to be a hell of a lot of appeals for 'Failure to Attend' decisions.
    Last edited by nukecad; 22-03-17 at 10:47.
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  3. #3
    brightonbelle
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    oh I was lazy, didn't even look at power point in post 4........off to take a look

    you hit the nail on the head nukecad, just because they have to wait for the white paper to make specific changes or introduce new stuff........they are sliding in the other changes they have made/planning to make whilst waiting for the white paper to rubber stamp

    ...and from the consultation process I got to see that the focus is very much on the potential to get things changed or introduced as quickly as possible, rather than on the potential to make changes, or not.

    The system will be under immense pressure. The changes will bring on a huge increase in JC workload, appeals will skyrocket. The question is how long will they blindly stumble along saying everything's working (like they are doing with UC) before they revise, but not remove, the change.


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    edited to add: ok looked at all the slides. My concern is not only on what's on them, it's what is absent.
    Currently, once something is on the claimant commitment it becomes mandatory - even if you volunteered for it - they don't let you un-volunteer. It's fine if the claimant commitment states that anything from the health and work conversation remains voluntary on the commitment - and somehow they accidentally omitted this from any of the slides?? (or maybe there is nothing to omit)
    Last edited by brightonbelle; 22-03-17 at 12:11.

  4. #4
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    When they first brought in mandatory WFI's they could not be mandated before the assessment decision, and still can't be.

    Simply because before that decision it is not known if you are going to be in Support Group and so not subject to mandation.

    Of course they assumed that everyone would have their decision before week 13.

    So just because they cannot keep to their own timescales they are going to change the law and mandate people who have no chance of attending a WFI to attend, and then sanction them the whole of their ESA assessment rate when they can't attend.

    Like I say, I see lots of sucessful 'Failure to Attend' appeals wasting the courts time if they go ahead with this.
    HMCTS are going to be furious with them. (Again).

    I envisage they will eventually have to back down and make any interviews before assessment voluntary again.
    But how many people will be needlessly put through the mill before that happens?


    It also says a lot about their expectations for UC.
    If they expect everyone making a new claim to be on UC soon (except for CB Support Group, and 12 months for CB WRAG) then why are they pushing this through for ESA?

    PS.
    Those Freedom of Information links in the rightsnet thread are also interesting reading, I've touched on them before in this thread about the Health and Work Conversation:
    http://www.youreable.com/forums/show...k-Conversation
    Last edited by nukecad; 22-03-17 at 12:09.
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  5. #5
    OMG!!!

    I've read the PowerPoint slides and frankly, I have never read such utter rubbish in all my life! I note that there will be the provision to exempt "vulnerable" claimants. I wonder how many of these there will be! And how many times work coaches with NO medical training call people in, inappropriately, and potentially sanction them for not attending. I can forsee situations like the one David Clapson found himself in mushrooming. For anyone who hasn't heard of this appalling case...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...nment-policies

    I would like to point out that although I'm trying out Permitted Work, at this stage in my life, there would have been absolutely no point in getting me anywhere near "the workplace", for a very considerable period of time - and certainly not within the first four weeks of my claim!

    I truly feel sorry for people who are becoming unwell for the first time, during this period of using sick people as guinea pigs, to see if this kind if thing works, (pun unintentional) - and not just those people considered "vulnerable" - after all, who isn't vulnerable when they get signed off for a serious illness or disability.

    I'm also incredibly sceptical about the so-called research, as some welfare rights workers also said in that thread. Honestly, it wouldn't take very long, actually working with people on the ground, to realise that these aspirations of the government are pie in the sky. Meanwhile, while they wait to see if this has the effect they want, many people suffer terribly.

    It's going to be an nightmare for anyone with mental health issues, in particular - and I happen to know that some vulnerable people don't have access to care workers to help them with the benefit maze at the moment. I heard of someone with multiple serious physical and mental health problems who nearly lost their ESA, altogether, because no care worker helped them to fill in their review form, (ESA 50). I can only hope that people with certain problems are exempted straightforwardly.

  6. #6
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I'm also incredibly sceptical about the so-called research,
    The main research the DWP quote is by Professor Gabriele Oettingen, professor of Psychology at New York University.
    (So obviously relevant to UK benefits then).

    Professor Oettingen herself freely describes her own ideas as "offbeat".

    The DWP say:
    Part of the Health and Work Conversations draws on a body of peer-reviewed research
    conducted by Professor Oettingen and others, related to mental contrasting and
    implementation intentions. This research covers strategies for goal-attainment that involve
    identifying a desired goal, anticipating the obstacles that might be encountered when trying to
    reach that goal, and determining a plan in advance for dealing with those obstacles.
    (My highlighting, see below).

    I won't put the links here, but this document gives the titles of the 'research' used.
    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...10%20Reply.pdf
    Copy and paste the titles into google if you want to waste your time and see more about the articles.

    It's all pscyo-babble, here's a small extract from the first in that list, about the 'Mental Contrasting' that the DWP mention in the quote above:
    Mental contrasting (Oettingen 2000, 2012) is a problem
    solving tool that fosters the pursuit and attainment of feasible
    goals. During mental contrasting, a person first
    mentally elaborates a desired future (e.g., get together with
    friends) and then identifies and imagines obstacles of
    reality that hold them back from realizing the envisioned
    future (e.g., feeling exhausted). Thus, mental contrasting of
    feasible wishes strengthens the associative links between
    the desired future and the obstacles of present reality
    (Kappes and Oettingen 2014) as well as between the
    obstacles and the behavior to overcome the obstacles (e.g.,
    to call my friend).
    Last edited by nukecad; 22-03-17 at 13:41.
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  7. #7
    OMG No.2. That is laughable! I think it's another case of the government deciding a policy and finding the evidence to fit. Highly scientific!

    But, what is worrying, is the government actually seems to believe that one of the reasons people with serious diagnosed health problems aren't going back to work is because they don't look at it the right way!! OK, there might be a grain of truth in it, in cases where people are recovered, or almost recovered - as they might lack confidence, optimism, etc. But, as we all know government policies in this area tend to trawl in too many people, including those who are evidently unsuitable, for whatever policy it is at the given time. I can only hope they exempt the right people, but I don't have much confidence in that.

    I think you and brightonbelle are right. This policy will see the dustbin sooner or later, but at what cost to vulnerable people!

  8. #8
    brightonbelle
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    "It also says a lot about their expectations for UC. If they expect everyone making
    a new claim to be on UC soon (except for CB Support Group, and 12 months for CB WRAG)
    then why are they pushing this through for ESA?"

    because they aren't prepared to wait for all new income ESA based claimants and existing claimants, to come under UC.

    First comes new IR ESA LCW claimants coming under conditions before payments are made.

    Then it will be existing claimants. Those with short awards (likely to improve) may at reassessment be found FFW = a change of circumstances warranting migration onto JSA or UC. If found still LCW, and in a full service area, possible migration onto UC.
    If in a live area, and still entitled to IR ESA, the claimant commitment etc can be bought in before the start of the award payment.

    What they ultimately want is one pot of claimants with LCW being treated the same in some areas, regardless of the benefit paid, until everyone is under UC and treated the same in all areas.


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    Last edited by brightonbelle; 22-03-17 at 15:10.

  9. #9
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    Yes it's quite obvious that they want to get rid of ESA WRAG altogether and just have a reduced claimant commitment for those with LCW.

    Lets face it as from April this is what has happened to new claims, ESA WRAG will be the same as JSA (with a reduced commitment) in all but name.

    (I'm betting it's not long before we see proposals to scrap CB WRAG as well so you'll either be CB Support Group or UC).

    The point I was making was about this WFI before assessment which is only going to apply to 'new style' ESA claims which will all be CB.
    New IR claims will (soon) all be UC so will come under UC rules.

    They are getting into a right mess because they keep trying to change things before the last lot of changes have had a chance to happen.

    Instead of UC 'replacing' existing benefits it has created even more because of this constant changing.
    There are now 6 different types of ESA active as well as UC-LCW and UC-LCWRA.
    So they have actually doubled the number of Limited Capability benefits.
    Last edited by nukecad; 22-03-17 at 15:12.
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