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Thread: permitted work

  1. #1
    brightonbelle
    Guest

    permitted work

    adding to the recent thread about the limit for permitted work in the LCW group being scrapped. Before it was a maximum of a year, now indefinite.

    The following info is only relevant where claimants have ESA LCW and eventually come under a full service area (where universal credit is accepting disabled claimants).

    Transferring across takes place when the dwp move you across from ESA onto UC. Its technical name is managed migration. Transitional protection means your finances are not affected, but transitional protection ends if you have a relevant change in circumstances. They don't plan to start transferring until UC has gone from full to live service in all areas.

    Ordinary migration onto UC takes place when you have a change of circumstance whilst on ESA. There is no financial transitional protection for ordinary migration, and no such thing as permitted work under UC. One such change that could see you migrated across, or potentially lose transitional protection if already on UC at some future point, is this:-

    a person moves from sick into work, or permitted work becomes permanent"


    How will they define permanent? maybe only by the issuing of a job offer and permanent contract, where the claimant chooses to become a permanent employee. Would the person then be doing paid permanent part time permitted work of less than 16hrs pw, but its a change in circumstances to migrate them over to UC where they become "a person who moves from sick into work" due to no distinction on the hours involved in part time work?, and that permitted work doesn't exist under UC.

    They are not saying permitted work becoming ordinary work (ie a very part time job that's not regarded as permitted work) but permitted work becoming permanent. On what basis could they view it as permanent as opposed to temporary aside from an employment contract - what about the type of permitted work that doesn't involve contracts like self employment and volunteering ? If I were a suspicious git I would think it might involve the length of time someone does it. 4 years perhaps? 2? more than 1?

    if that was me doing it, at 11.5 months in (every year, whilst still on ESA) I might just take a month off just to be sure.

    BB

    first post, click on link, slide number 5

    http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/10198
    Last edited by brightonbelle; 18-03-17 at 12:25.

  2. #2
    Presumably you're talking about this bit:-

    "Move from sick to in work (or permitted work becomes permanent)
    Current ESA(IR) claimants are no longer able to make a new claim to Tax Credits if they live in a Universal credit Full Service area and should be advised to make an online claim to Universal Credit. Those with an existing Tax Credit claim can continue to claim Tax Credit"

    I take that to mean if you breach the Permitted Work rules and you're in an area that has the full service, then you'll have to claim UC and not Working Tax Credit next. It may just be very badly worded??? Not sure!

  3. #3
    brightonbelle
    Guest
    ...so if you exceed permitted work, you have to claim tax credits, an in work benefit, so you lose LCW status as you cant be on ESA and claim TC? so you'd be moving from sick into work?

    and if its permitted work becoming permanent (under 16hrs) then not eligible for TC. Will it affect the LCW status, as permitted work is aimed at "testing your own capacity for doing some work and perhaps gain new skills". Will "becoming permanent" define someone as having gained capacity?

    I don't know. confused.com. That's why I like to see others perspectives.


    BB

  4. #4
    brightonbelle
    Guest
    ....update re existing income based ESA claimants and permitted work.

    Just reminding that live service is where legacy benefits may still be available (working tax credits, IR ESA etc). Full service is where the legacy benefits are no longer available, and changes in circumstances may result in “natural migration”over to Universal Credit.

    1-This is what could happen if you start work, or increase working hours to satisfy working tax credit hours (16, 24 or30). If in a live area the person would stop claiming ESA and start claiming working tax credit. In a full service area they would have to claim UC.

    2-If on an existing legacy benefit (eg IR JSA, HB) and start work but not doing enough hours to meet WTC.....then in a live UC area legacy benefits could be adjusted. In a full service area they may have the choice to remain on the adjusted legacy benefit or claim UC if better off.

    3-“If on IR ESA and doing permitted work and the work becomes permanent, hours increase over 16, or any other reason for not satisfying permitted work rules” *– in a live service area there may be the potential for a WTC claim. In a full service area they would be migrated over onto UC.

    I take the last paragraph to mean that the breeching of the permitted work rules mean it is no longer PW, and just work. In which case the person who doesn't work enough hours may remain on IR ESA, but the wage is no longer discounted in the benefit calculations (adjusted legacy benefit). Or they do enough hours for a WTC claim as in 1.

    But 3 says permitted work change of circumstances gets you migrated over to UC..........in contrast 2 says work may result in a choice of being migrated over or staying on adjusted legacy benefits. I guess the devil is in the detail of the difference between permitted and ordinary work. By implication in 2, a person may want to stay on legacy benefits it may be more than UC. If that were to apply to IR ESA, it could reduce it as wage counted, but may keep some, plus disability premiums and any potential housing benefit. Or they may find that UC with its work allowance may be more - if they never had, or lost SDP/HB.

    However, where there no longer is a consideration of work being permitted, and its just work, there is the potential for a fit for work element coming into play that may impact on LCW?


    BB

    * https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/sites/d...rvice_area.pdf

    edited to make a couple of amendments pointed out by izzy re "legacy benefits"
    Last edited by brightonbelle; 21-03-17 at 12:36.

  5. #5
    Gosh, this is confusing! Thanks for finding that table.

    Quote Originally Posted by brightonbelle View Post
    2-If on an existing legacy benefit (IR ESA etc) and start work but not doing enough hours to meet WTC.....then in a live UC area legacy benefits could be adjusted. In a full service area they may have the choice to remain on the adjusted legacy benefit or claim UC if better off.

    3-“If on IR ESA and doing permitted work and the work becomes permanent, hours increase over 16, or any other reason for not satisfying permitted work rules” *– in a live service area there may be the potential for a WTC claim. In a full service area they would be migrated over onto UC.

    I take the last paragraph to mean that the breeching of the permitted work rules mean it is no longer PW, and just work. In which case the person who doesn't work enough hours may remain on IR ESA, but the wage is no longer discounted in the benefit calculations (adjusted legacy benefit). Or they do enough hours for a WTC claim as in 1.

    But 3 says permitted work change of circumstances gets you migrated over to UC..........in contrast 2 says work may result in a choice of being migrated over or staying on IR ESA. I guess the devil is in the detail of the difference between permitted and ordinary work. By implication in 2, a person may want to stay on IR ESA because it may be more than UC. Reduced IR ESA as wage counted, but may keep some, plus disability premiums and any potential housing benefit. Or they may find that UC with its work allowance may be more if they lose all the IR ESA and other benefits.

    BB

    * https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/sites/d...rvice_area.pdf
    In regard to your point 2, the table says "legacy benefits", eg. JSA and HB. It doesn't say explicitly that it's only those they are referring to, but it might be! I think that would fit in with my understanding of the current system. Permitted Work is only allowed on ESA, so I'm not sure it necessarily means the potential to adjust, (ie. means test), IR ESA etc. Don't know though!

    Your point 3. It does appear that if Permitted Work becomes permanent, it would be a reason to make you claim UC, when it becomes available. However, what do they mean by permanent? I suppose as you say, perhaps a written contract, length of time, (how long's a piece of string and who decides on whether it's too long?)

    In my case, there won't be any employment contracts, because I'm working for myself, so I'm not sure on what basis they might consider it "permanent". At the moment, I've barely started, so I'm still at the stage of testing myself out. I'll either succeed at this new venture, or not, either because the business fails to make reasonable money, or I am unable to do it, because of my poor health. Even I don't know how it is going to pan out, so I'm genuinely at the trying it out stage, so I'm not worried at the moment.

    Of course, if I earn more than £120/week, or go over the 16 hours limit, then it's self-explanatory that I'd have to claim WTC, or UC, once it's available. But, as you say, the issue is, on what basis might they consider your Permitted Work permanent. This is the unanswered question!! But, personally, I can't worry about that at the moment. I'm still testing myself out and I could still fall flat on my face.

  6. #6
    brightonbelle
    Guest
    Izzy,

    the only thing that is important is that you give it a go! whilst you keep a watchful eye on the situation that's all I wanted to attain, raising peoples awareness so they can avoid being "sprung on" by the DWP. There's every possibility you wont fail, or you have a few stumbles along the way but it gets better. It is better to try, and fail.....than fail to try.

    They have to produce something to say what is defined as permanent. Then you will know if you have to take any steps. Hopefully anyone following this thread might be the first to find the definition and post it up.

    They cant leave it to open to interpretation......because if they did all you have to say is "this is just a temporary try out" whenever asked anything about your work. I still maintain that they removed the one year limit for a reason. If it looks too good to be true it bloody well is!

    I have concerns about means testing the IR ESA. Only permitted work income is ignored, so by default if it becomes "normal" work it loses this protection. But, if not given an option to stay on IR ESA and having to claim UC it wouldn't be relevant anyway. Like you say, the best tactic is to ensure you give them no opportunity to take away the permitted work protection. Stay one step ahead




    BB

    ps well spotted on the point about legacy benefits!.....have amended accordingly. IR ESA is stated on 3 where no choice on being managed over to UC.......whereas IR ESA is omitted in 2 where they give you a choice to move onto UC or stay on legacy benefits - and naming only IR JSA and HB as the legacy benefits. hmmmm. I thought the "e.g" would include other legacy benefits including IR ESA. It may be so, or it may be that IR ESA = no choice.
    Last edited by brightonbelle; 21-03-17 at 12:38.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by brightonbelle View Post
    Izzy,

    the only thing that is important is that you give it a go! whilst you keep a watchful eye on the situation that's all I wanted to attain, raising peoples awareness so they can avoid being "sprung on" by the DWP. There's every possibility you wont fail, or you have a few stumbles along the way but it gets better. It is better to try, and fail.....than fail to try.
    Thanks brightonbelle. I agree, it's good to remain aware of potential pitfalls. Hope these kind of threads help keep people informed!

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