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Thread: Self-employed Permitted Work

  1. #1

    Self-employed Permitted Work - averaging earnings?

    Hello

    I've filled in a Permitted Work form, several months ago, but I still have not had a letter back. I've rung up about this and apparently I'm meant to get one saying that my PW has been approved. No idea when I'll get this, though, so I asked them to read me the contents of this letter over the phone.

    Firstly, I am a bit surprised that they have classed my earnings as fitting into the PW higher earnings limit. I have read in several places there is scope for averaging earnings, when someone's earnings are not regular. If they had done this, I should have come under the lower limit rules.

    All the letter states is the standard stuff about working less than 16 hours, on average, and I'm not to earn more than £115.50 per week.

    The trouble with this, is that I now fall under the 52 week rule and because they have taken so long to decide upon my case, the deadline when I have to stop is fast approaching.

    Frankly, I'm thinking I may have to challenge this decision, but I'm worried that by the time they have reviewed this decision, if it goes against me, my 52 weeks will be up.

    Does anyone know who I need to speak to about this?
    Last edited by Izzy2; 18-11-16 at 17:59.

  2. #2
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    It's always going to be funny with self employed PW where you can't give set weekly earnings.

    I would have thought here though if you are getting to the 52 weeks then you can show how much per week you have been making for the last year.

    If it's been under £20 a week then it's PW lower limit, more than that it's PW higher limit - up to the limits.

    So how have your earnings averaged out?

    Lower limit- no problem.
    Higher limit- you can only do 52 weeks if in WRAG, no problem if in SG.

    This 52 week limit is supposed to be being scrapped, but I've not seen an official date yet.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

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  3. #3
    Well, actually, I'm not that near the end of the 52 weeks, I'm just getting anxious, since by Xmas, half of that time will have gone.

    To be honest, in the last 5 months, I have earned about £150, so it seems a little unfair to have put me under the higher limit! I am starting my business really slowly, since I have been ill for a extremely long time - and don't know how working will affect me.

    Restricting me to the 52 weeks, (I'm in the WRAG, though incorrectly, I think), means I simply won't have the time to build myself up enough, to possibly make this business work. I had thought that I might be able to progress to the higher limit, after a while, if I felt able to, and could find the work.

    They have wrecked this for me. It's very disappointing. Do you know how and when they inform you about possibly averaging your earnings? Who is responsible for doing this?

    So sorry to hear about your recent heart attack nukecad. I was going to send my good wishes, but I was in the middle of moving house at the time - my life was very stressful and cluttered!

  4. #4
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I doubt if they will contact you at all, other than to say your 52 weeks are up and you should stop claiming ESA.

    I declared some self employed PW a few years ago.
    It was only 3 days, 8 hours each day, spread over a month. (Some building plans for a friends outbuilding conversion).
    Imagine my surprise when a year later I got a letter saying that as I was working I would have to give up my ESA claim.

    That letter/form was a particularly misleading one, even for the DWP.
    There was no space on the form where you could say you were no longer working, just a box to sign to close your ESA claim.

    A phone call soon sorted them out. (Followed of course by a letter saying I was not working to get things on record).


    You may be interested to know that you do not need their permission to do the work.
    In the ESA legislation it is termed 'Exempt Work' and sets out the limits of hours and earnings that are allowed.
    As long as you stay within the limits then your ESA continues to be paid.
    There is no requirement to get the DWPs permission before you do any work.
    You should inform them (with a PW1) so that they can check it does fall within the exemptions, saves problems later if/when they find out you have been working.


    I think if I was you I would be sending them another PW1 covering your last 6 months.
    Where is says "What date will the job begin" put the date six months before the date at the top of the form.
    Do the same with "How much will you earn", put what you have earned in those 6 months.
    and similar with the working hours.

    From that they will be able to see just what work you have done, and see that up to now it had been at the lower limit.


    Thanks for the good wishes,
    I am doing fine, the main problem was the bruised ribcage from the CPR and that is almost fully healed now.
    Just got an appointment this morning to go back for another angioplasty procedure. Probably another stent this time in my Right Coronary Artery.
    No problem, I know what is involved now and it's less hassle and less pain than going to the dentist.

    One laugh, I also got a letter from the Hospital in Carlisle asking why I missed a neurology appointment - err, because I was wired up to heart monitors in the CCU upstairs. (Guess the nurse didn't pass on my message).

    And a thought - I was dead for ten minutes and brought back to life; does that make me a zombie now?
    Last edited by nukecad; 19-11-16 at 12:02.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  5. #5
    Thanks for your advice nukecad.

    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    I doubt if they will contact you at all, other than to say your 52 weeks are up and you should stop claiming ESA.
    This amazes me. I had been expecting a letter to say they had "approved" it. At least I should have been informed that they have classed my earnings as being under the higher limit. I wouldn't have even known this, if I hadn't rang up and asked them! Your experiences over your own PW seem pretty extraordinary. It seems they do get things wrong a lot.

    It's a good idea to send them another PW1 form, too, detailing my actual earnings, to date. I think I'll attach a letter, as well, pointing out that they should have averaged my earnings. I thought I had made it clear on the original form that my hours were sporadic and my income was not regular! Would it be possible for you to provide me with a link to any documents that say they should average hours and income for self-employed workers, who don't have a regular working pattern? It seems they need to be reminded!

    I used to have a friend with a favourite expression: just remember it's usually more of a cock up than a conspiracy. I hope that's also true of the DWP, but it's easy to get the impression that they fall into the latter camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by nukecad View Post
    I am doing fine, the main problem was the bruised ribcage from the CPR and that is almost fully healed now.
    Just got an appointment this morning to go back for another angioplasty procedure. Probably another stent this time in my Right Coronary Artery.
    No problem, I know what is involved now and it's less hassle and less pain than going to the dentist.

    One laugh, I also got a letter from the Hospital in Carlisle asking why I missed a neurology appointment - err, because I was wired up to heart monitors in the CCU upstairs. (Guess the nurse didn't pass on my message).

    And a thought - I was dead for ten minutes and brought back to life; does that make me a zombie now?
    Glad you're doing OK. And can still see the funny side! That's a great quality to have. You made me laugh. Puts my own problems into perspective! Best of luck for your recovery.

  6. #6
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I'm on my phone at the moment (in the pub) so can't add a link till later.

    It's in the decision makers guides about income, off the top of my head thats chapter 48, (but I could be wrong on the number, Ive had a couple of pints).

    There are a number of threads on here that have a link to the DM guides, or a Google search will find them.

    I'm of the same opinion of the DWP, not deliberately malicious just incompetent.
    Last edited by nukecad; 19-11-16 at 20:51.
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  7. #7
    Senior Member nukecad's Avatar
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    I thought I was a bit out, Ch.48 is general rules on income. Self employment is Ch.50.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ce-staff-guide

    If you download that CH.50 pdf and do a search for 'average' you should find something relevent.
    (Tip - scroll the page up from each 'average' found to make sure what it is talking about).
    I don't know everything. - But I'm good at searching for, and finding, stuff.

    Migration from ESA to Universal Credit- Click here for information.

  8. #8
    Thanks very much nukecad. I appreciate it.

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