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star2sparkle
09-05-18, 16:17
I really do hope this query can be answered/empathised with.
I have been offered a job and it is a very good opportunity, though very responsible.
I currently claim ESA and DLA, am in the WRAG group for ESA. Under normal circumstances, my ESA wouldn't become universal credit unti next year. However, due to the new benefit, I wouldn't be able to claim tax credits anymore but universal credit. And I am really worried about this. This job is part-time, looking at the calculations, I would just receive about £30 a week with UC, making me overall £78 a week better off working (21 hours). I suffer from many health issues and when I claimed tax credits before, if the job didn't work out (due to ill health in my case) then I could do a rapid recaim and go back to my orginal benefit of ESA (as long as it was within 12 weeks). But with UC, there appears to be all these sanctions (and hardly any available info regarding people who are disabled and working) and there is no 12 week rule and no safety net if the job doesn't work out. This all feels an enormous risk for me, I am not at all sure if the job is right for me and I am terrified this change of circumstance making me go on to UC (when it wouldn't have been until next year normally if not working) will work out, and having to wait so long to be paid (as well as the fact my job would pay monthly in arrears too), this all feels completely overwhelming! If I have to leave the job, I am worried I would be sanctioned and without money for months. I would have to go through the whole process again of being assessed for UC when right now, I am absolutely fine, with no hassle because I am simply receiving ESA. I am in a full service area of UC so any change of circumstance will change my benefit to UC. This seems like no incentive for people with disabilities to see if they can work and I fear I have no choice but to now refuse the job because the risks are so high. What does anyone think?

nukecad
09-05-18, 17:49
To start with - working 21 hours a week would be above the 16 hours exempt work (permitted work) allowance for ESA.

There is no 12 week "rapid reclaim" with UC because it is not needed.

Your UC claim stays open all the time you are working and earning below a certain level so there is no need to reclaim, it's just a change of circumstances - which is quick to process (not like an ESA CoC).

If you are on UC Limited Capability and try working and find that you can't cope within 12 weeks then you can go straight back to Limited Capability.

Sorry my wifi connection is playing up.
I may post more later, in the meantime pist any follow up questions you may have.

nukecad
09-05-18, 17:57
Try again after resetting the router.

If you switch to UC then you will not need a reassessment (but some jobcentres don't seem to know that).

There are the Transitional Regulations that say your ESA award is automatically carried over as a UC Limited Capability Element from the start of your UC claim.

Click on the blue text below any of my posts, about migration from ESA to UC, for more detailed information about this.

star2sparkle
09-05-18, 18:23
Thanks nukecad, so glad you replied.
So let's say, I start the job next week. I then apply online for UC to tell them I have a change of circumstances and have started a new job (so they will know I was in receipt of ESA WRAG group).
And then I won't need a reassessment at that point due to the transitional regulations as a UC limited capability element. So it will just be time to wait to be paid. That is correct so far?
But are you sure about if I can't cope with the job within 12 weeks (so this is like tax credits, 12 weeks?) then I go straight back to limited capability UC which will be similar to what I receive now on ESA? But I read that if you leave a job, they sanction you. At the very least, will reassess for UC surely? Surely it can't be that simple (like it admittedly was with tax credits)?

nukecad
09-05-18, 19:05
Yes that is how it is set up and how it is supposed to happen.

The initial change from ESA to UC has been the problem in the last year, because the jobcentre staff were only trained about newly unemployed/jobseekers to start with and so anything like a transfer from ESA just confused them.

It's got a lot better as things go on and they get more training/experience, but they still make mistakes and always will because their training is crap, they can't know every circumstance, and things keep changing.

The bit about leaving a job and being sanctioned for it is a scaremongering red herring.
It has always been the case that if you leave a job without good reason then you can't have any benefit for a while.

Be careful what you read online; there are a lot of people talking a lot of rumor and incorrect information.

nukecad
09-05-18, 19:14
PS. If you do claim UC then tell them, repeatedly, that you are currently claiming ESA.

They won't know unless you tell them and will use the wrong computer options.

star2sparkle
09-05-18, 20:11
Okay, thank you for all of this. Really helps, makes me feel I could do this.
I will let them know I am currently claiming ESA.
But I still do this online?
And it still has to be within 12 weeks, like tax credits, if I feel I can't do the job for health reasons, that I inform them and hopefully my UC will eventually be a similar amount to what my ESA benefit is now?
I always feel a bit concerned as I am still on DLA and it hasn't changed to PIP, for when that assessment comes round that they may think I am fit and healthy.

nukecad
09-05-18, 21:41
DLA/PIP is nothing to do with Universal Credit.

UC is only about Income Related benefits, and DLA/PIP are not Income Related.

You may be better phoning them rather than trying to claim online, as far as I know the online forms still think that your are newly unemployed and not migrating/transfering.
(They will catch up but don't hold your breath).
It's not easy to do curtently if you have no computer access, or can't use one. But there are ways.
(Again this will probably get better once they realise that not everyone is a jobseeker, and not everyone has accees to a computer. Again DHYB).
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/apply/apply-for-universal-credit/

But yes, the more I look at and learn about UC, and the more I see what it is trying to do, I'm becoming to like the idea of it.
It's all going to depend on what government does in the next few years.

TBH my only issue if I migrated from ESA to UC right now would be the monthly instead of fortnightly payments, and the crap from the last couple of years when the jobcentre staff didn't have enough training.

star2sparkle
09-05-18, 22:13
On another website...a forum (not sure if I should mention which one) someone else spoke about what if they worked and referred to worrying about PIP and this was the answer from the expert there;
'You also need to consider your PIP, whilst there is not a specific requirement for claimants to tell the DWP that they have started work, if you fail to do so and the DWP believe that your working is the result of an improvement in your conditions then it will disadvantage you. If you do notify the DWP then it will almost certainly result in an early reassessment of your claim and your working will be considered as part of the assessment.'
So that concerns me...

nukecad
09-05-18, 22:57
That's fair enough,

That answer was right, but not a full explanation.

The important words there are - "the DWP believe that your working is the result of an improvement in your conditions".

The example we often use here is-
If you have started a job as a postman / delivering leaflets when previously you said you couldn't walk more than ### meters then you are going to be in trouble with the DWP.

Depending on what you are claiming DLA/PIP for then you can do work that doesn't contradict the reason for your claim.

Many people claiming DLA/PIP work, you must have heard of 'Access to Work' to help disabled people get help to work, or get to a place of work?
There are partners with different conditions, both on DLA/PIP who claim carers allowance for looking after each other.

It's only ESA where doing any work above 16 hours per week (or wages above 16 hrs min wage) will stop ESA benefit automatically.

star2sparkle
10-05-18, 09:47
Oh God, hi nukecad, I have returned.
I rang up UC, tried to talk about the 12 week rule. They didn't know (surprise, effing surprise!) so told me to ring ESA. Rang ESA, after a long time waiting, the woman there said a big fat no, if I left the job within 12 weeks, I would definitely have to be reassessed again for UC and there could be a sanction. There is a chance she doesn't know what she's talking about (and most of them don't as you know, we could do their jobs, why the hell are they employed??) but the risk now is overwhelming me. I am meant to start work on Monday and am freaking out. If I just remain as I am, on ESA, I will stay that way until next year without all this stress. I find it totally and utterly depressing. There are hardly any jobs where I am and feels like no hope of working :-(

nukecad
10-05-18, 15:57
The UC people would not know of any 12 week rule, there isn't one with UC.

With ESA if you start working more than 16 hours/week then your ESA claim ends altogether, if you can't manage the work and give it up within 12 weeks then you can make a new claim for ESA and go back in your previous group without an assessment.
That's the 12 week 'rapid reclaim' rule with ESA.

With UC there is no need for the 12 week rule, because if/when you start working you will still be claiming UC while you are working, and still with a Limited Capability element (Unless you are earning enough that you no longer quailfy), your claim doesn't end so you don't have you make a reclaim if you stop working again, it's just a Change of Income to your ongiong claim.

(If you do earn enough that your UC stops altogether then there is a different six month 'rapid reclaim' process with UC, this applies whether you have Limited Capability or not).

So you wouldn't have to make a new UC claim if you start working part time on UC and then give up again, because your UC will continue all along just at a reduced rate whilst you are earning money part time.
And any Limited Capability entitlement continues along with it (and if you get an extra payment for it then it will still be paid even if you are working part time), so there's no need for a reassessment.

This link explains it a bit more, in particular see part 5 which explains working while still claiming UC Limited Capability:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-if-you-have-a-disability-or-health-condition-quick-guide/universal-credit-if-you-have-a-disability-or-health-condition

And yes you're correct about the phone jockeys - they tend to have very poor training, just the basics, and often don't know the rules and regulations for situations that are less often encountered.

nukecad
10-05-18, 16:11
Further to that-

The only potential problem I can see in your case is that when you start working you will not be claiming UC, you will still be claiming ESA which will stop because you are working more than 16 hours.

You then claim UC, this is called 'natural migration; because it directly follows on from from a period where you were claiming ESA, and your Limited Capability (WRAG) entitlement should be applied from the start of the UC claim without a new assessment.
But again the DWP staff seem to have a problem with this legislation and often don't understand it properly.

This post explains this and what the law says about it so you know what regulation to quote should you have any problem:
https://www.youreable.com/forums/showthread.php?17765-Migration-from-ESA-to-Universal-Credit-the-facts&p=133915&viewfull=1#post133915

Note carefully that regulation 19.(1)(a), which says you should claim UC on the same date (or before) you ESA ends.
(Otherwise your Limited Capability, WRAG, will not automatically carry over).

star2sparkle
10-05-18, 17:35
Thank you nukecad.
What concerns me the very most in all this, is this part;
'With UC there is no need for the 12 week rule, because if/when you start working you will still be claiming UC while you are working, and still with a Limited Capability element (Unless you are earning enough that you no longer quailfy), your claim doesn't end so you don't have you make a reclaim if you stop working again, it's just a Change of Income to your ongoing claim.'
A change of income...you see, I can't see them just accepting people working and then giving up and not being penalised or reassessed for UC. But I could well be wrong because of the group I would be in (and I know there is a commitment you agree to) But there just isn't enough information out there that says about this specifically (like the gov website) and there aren't enough/any examples of this happening to anyone. And there seems to be no one to ask! So the risk (and stress) seems huge to me. I understand and appreciate all about claiming, all about ESA, all about when to claim, etc, etc but what I am uncertain about is if I would be left vulnerable if I have to give up the job. If only someone at UC could answer this specific question...if only anyone who works for the benefits could answer this and have it in writing because without that assured safety net, I can't take the job.

nukecad
11-05-18, 04:16
I see your concern,

I'll have a look round and see if I can find anything specific about that.

If not I'll probably fire off an FoI request about it, to get a specific written answer from them.
But that' unlikely to be answered for a few weeks.

nukecad
11-05-18, 05:07
I'm still looking for something specific, but this may help put your mind at rest.

As you will have a 'Limited Capability for Work' status with UC you will be in the "Work preparation requirement" group, even when working.

From this:
https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit/Claimant-Commitment-Conditionality

Work preparation requirement

You will be placed in this group if you are assessed as having limited capability for work (LCW). If you are placed in this group, you will be expected to prepare for a move into work, additional work, or better paid work. Actions to get ready for work could include attending training courses, preparing a CV or taking part in the Work Programme.

You will not be required to take steps to apply for or take up work as a condition of your claim.

As you are not required to 'apply for or take up work' in the first place then they can't sanction you for stopping working.

This is because they can't make working a condition in your claimant commitment.
You can't be sanctioned for breaching a condition of your claimant commitment if what you do is not in the commitment in the first place.

Again from turn2us:
https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit/Universal-Credit-sanctions#guide-content

A sanction is a cut in your benefit if you fail to meet your claimant commitment without good reason.

Also see this about Low Level sanctions:
http://benefitsaware.centralenglandlc.org.uk/universal-credit-sanctions/
It tells you what you can be sanctioned for if you are in the "Work preparation requirement" group.

EDIT
I've been wading through the Advice for Decision Makers (ADM) guides but can't find anything specific to this situation.
This is actually good news as a situation not being mentioned usually means that it is not an issue to be considered.
If it was an issue then there would be chapters refering to when a sanction could be imposed for it.

Sometimes that's the way it works, something not being covered is as telling as if it was covered.

I believe that you will be fine, and would have no hesitation doing this myself, but of course it's your decision.

I'l fire off a FoI request anyway to try and get written clarification, but they have up to a month to reply to an FoI.

star2sparkle
11-05-18, 08:20
Thank you so much nukecad. You have been so helpful and are one in a million.
I think the same as you really, in all that you have said.
I feel so cautious because I do worry that the job will be too much for me anyway. They did offer me a smaller position and I should have just accepted that (oh the benefit of hindsight!) and now I don't think they will offer that job if I turn down the more responsible one. They don't know my health problems as I am quite sure they would think I wasn't reliable and would not have got any job with them.
So typical to get a job when my area turns into a full UC zone. Would have been fine with tax credits. And so to become a 'situation' that is not talked about much yet with UC.
But I do wonder, as I am obviously still on ESA, wrag group, if I did work below 16 hours, and earned below the required permitted amount, if I would be stay on ESA or whether that change of circumstances (working below 16 hours) would mean I'd have to claim UC? Thank you again.

beau
11-05-18, 08:26
Wishing you all the best with your new job. Hope it all turns out right for you.

nukecad
11-05-18, 11:04
....... a 'situation' that is not talked about much yet with UC.

But I do wonder, as I am obviously still on ESA, wrag group, if I did work below 16 hours, and earned below the required permitted amount, if I would be stay on ESA or whether that change of circumstances (working below 16 hours) would mean I'd have to claim UC? Thank you again.
I suspect that it's a situation that hasn't arisen much yet, and probably won't do very often at all, so there will be very little information about it out in the wild.

If you were below 16 hrs and min wage then you would stay on ESA, as it could be done under ESA Permitted Work rules.

It's only the question of doing more than 16 hours and wanting to claim Working Tax Credits that brings UC into it.
You can't claim WTC for less than 16 hours, you can't have ESA if you work more than 16 hours, so there is no way to claim WTC and ESA at the same time.

Previously if you started working more than 16 hrs then your ESA would stop and you would claim WTC instead.
(This still applies in a UC Live Service area).

You can't claim WTC in a UC Full Service area, so it has to be UC if you want to top up your wages, and as soon as you claim UC your existing IR benefits get migrated too.

In your case it won't actually be a migration as your ESA will stop when you start work, but as long as you make your UC claim on the same day then the Limited Capability element (WRAG) will carry over into UC.
You may have to convince the DWP advisor of this though, I'd take a copy of that regulation 19 when you go for your initial UC interview.

You realise that you will still be subject to mandatory WFI's and reassessments, even though you are working?

Sounds like the day you start work is going to be quite busy, stopping ESA, claiming UC, and all on top of the first day in a new job.

Best wishes, hope it all goes without any hitches.

PS.
You may want to follow this FoI:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/universal_credit_work_preparatio#incoming-1156460
If you register with that website you can 'follow' requests and set it to email you when a request you are following has new activity.
If you intend to make any FoI's yourself then you should use a 'real' name to register (It doesn't have to be your actual name as long as it looks 'real', if doing this then rember not to use your actual name when signing the bottom of any requests).
This is a requirement of the FoI legislation, and they can (and do) refuse to answer if you don't use a 'real' name, or if they suspect you have given a false name.

star2sparkle
12-05-18, 07:58
Hi nukecad

Yesterday was a day where I really did have to make the right decision as to what to do.
I am following the FoI, thank you for that.
I think next year, when UC really has taken over, my issue won't be an issue anymore as it will just be like someone starting a job and earning tax credits like before and if they leave, there are certain rules (and of course, that was within 12 weeks).
I am surprised actually that no one else has encountered this, the same situation as me. There must be people who are on ESA due to health reasons and start a job and have to switch over to UC due to their region, and find themselves unable to do the job, considering how many of us are in this country. So why there is nothing specific about it beats me.
Common sense suggests all you say to be true; being in the work prep requirement group, there are certain specifics,such as preparing for work, attending certain events, etc and as you aren't required to take up work, one would think they can't penalise you for working. But that is common sense. I personally would wonder why someone was in that group if they were actually working and would consider reassessing them...and that is common sense too.
You agree? That group is more about preparing for work, and thus would seem odd that even though my ESA dictates limited capability, suddenly I am working, and even though I have limited capability, I think they would reconsider the group I was in, but that we can't be sure of.
It could trigger off a chain of events and due to the lack of information regarding it, I considered it to be a high risk. Even though DLA is different to UC and ESA, I know that I will be up for an assessment for PIP soon too and if I lose that...more horrors really.
And the job itself, they only gave me this job because someone turned it down before me and they were desperate. I could be running myself down a bit there but the company itself has not been competent, taking an absolute age to contact me about DBS and references, and then not knowing what to put in for the DBS when I saw them. And it was only when I went to see them for the DBS that the role became clearer to me and I realised that it may not be for me (they had not made the role really clear and I had thought it was actually not as extreme as it turned out to be). I suffer from anxiety related disorders and then discovered that I could be calling an ambulance for people who had taken overdoses or drank too much, or were suffering from psychosis. It was then that I thought, oh shite! But I still thought that if there was a safety net...I would at least try. But we can't be sure of that safety net and I fear that me doing the job would open a can of worms instead.
So I turned down the job yesterday and received absolutely no reply from them. My doctor rang me yesterday to say that blood tests had revealed lots of deficiencies that need addressing , so that added to it.
The situation is depressing but in the end I felt like the risk was too big :-( It will be good to get a response from the FoI, which will take time but I do suspect that it won't be quite so simple as them accepting someone giving up a job and that a good reason would have to be provided that would need to be backed up with evidence. And in my situation, I would have liked to be already be on UC to know what I was receiving and being in that group first, before getting the job.
Be interested to see what you think nukecad, and thank you again.

star2sparkle
12-05-18, 08:46
I just wanted to add here, with tax credits, it was so easy. If you couldn't do the job, you could make a rapid reclaim, provided it was within the 12 weeks, and no questions were asked, no evidence asked to be provided. With Universal Credit, it is all about getting people to work, increase their hours, get more money, etc, etc, which is why I doubt very much they would just 'accept' someone leaving a job. It wouldn't be like tax credits, and that could mean a reassessment, but at the very least, questions asked and evidence (probably from a doctor) required. Even if you do have health problems. Even if you were half dead and working with your eyes shut because you could hardly open them. I don't think they would let someone off the hook. It makes me laugh (actually conversely, very sad) as I tried to do all this just for an extra £78 a week, to work a highly stressful job. When corrupt politicians steal thousands and get awarded a knighthood at the House of Lords!

nukecad
12-05-18, 12:33
I'm sure that most of those on ESA WRAG who attempt work will endeavour to stay below the 16 hour/min wage permitted work limits, precisely to avoid the situation of moving to UC.

I guess anyone considering more than 16 hours will be put off, as you were.

It's one of those funny things that can happen at the moment because UC law doesn't realy recognise that other IR benefits exist.
Once everyone is on UC these strange situations will dissapear.

As for the working whilst claiming Limited Capability, it is Limited Capability not Zero Capability.
ESA recognises this with the Permitted Work rules, UC just takes it further and lets you work longer hours and for more money.

TBH since April 2017 making a claim for Limited Capability for Work with UC does not give you any financial advantage over a fully able jobseeker, it just limits your Claimant Commitment and cuts down what they can mandate you to do or sanction you for.
(If you had LCW before April 2017 you still get the extra money, and Limited Capability for Work and Work Related Activity with UC still gives more).

I still don't believe that it would be a problem giving up work in these circumstances, you would still be in the LCW group even though attempting work, and so would have 'good reason' for doing so - it was beyond your limited capabilities.
It's if you were not in the LCW that giving up work would be a problem.

But yes, it's always a problem when considering working just how that will be seen at your next assessment.
It all depends on if what you are doing contradicts what you say your (in)capabilities are.

We'll see what happens with the FoI, the DWP are masters at delaying, confusing, obscuring, and outright refusing answers.
You have to word requests carefully so as not to give them an excuse to refuse, or only answer with something you didn't ask for.
And you should have a bit of knowledge of what grounds they can or can't refuse to answer.
It can be a good game if you have the patience.

Shame you had to turn down the job, but from what you say then it does not sound as if it would have been suitable for you.

Better luck finding something suitable in the future. But I would try and keep it below the PW limits to avoid UC until we all get migrated.

star2sparkle
12-05-18, 12:43
Thank you nukecad, it has been so good talking with you :) And thank you again for your support, much appreciated.

nukecad
04-06-18, 16:08
There has been a reply to that FoI.

Not very helpful, it just points to 'ADM chapter K1'

Reading that if you have LCW/LCWRA, try work and have to give it up, then they can't sanction you.

As usual it does not state this implicitly, you have to work it out from a couple of different chapters and notes.

I'll post more with the chapter references and a fuller explanation when I get back to the laptop.

nukecad
04-06-18, 20:10
Here's the more detailed explanation from my reading of the ADM K1 guidance.

K1020, point 4, says that a Higher Level sanction is raised against a claimant who "by reason of misconduct, or voluntarily and for no good reason, ceases paid work or loses pay".

BUT

K1009 says Higher Level sanctions can only be applied to the 'All Work Related Requirements' group.

Just to note that-
K1021 says that those in the "No Work Related Requirement group due to earnings" will immediately be transfered to the AWRR group if they voluntarily give up work.
However- Note 1 clearly explains that this only applies to those who are in NWRR because of earnings above their earnings threashold. So if you are in NWRR group because of LCWRA this does not apply.

Work Preparation group (LCW), and Work focused interview group (carers, etc.) are not mentioned at all, but K1009 would rule out a Higher Level sanction for these groups.

So all in all if you are not in the 'All Work Related Requirements' group, because you have LCW or LCWRA, then you cannot be given a sanction if you attempt work but have to give it up.

Lighttouch
06-06-18, 18:30
DLA and PIP are not means-tested and you can get it whether in or out of work.

Now once you open the doors to work there's another benefit - it's the Governments best kept secret - any ideas.

star2sparkle
08-06-18, 10:44
Thank you nukecad, all you have done is very helpful. Really appreciate it.
But (there has to be one, doesn't there?) they couldn't answer properly, could they? Too much bother to answer a specific question, and though I also looked through the document and I agree with what you say, I am still super wary. Need someone who has actually experienced it, I think. Then we will know for absolute sure.
They are about to stop my DLA and reassess me for PIP so I am glad now that I didn't do the job (despite that benefit being different) because I still think that if they ask you at the assessment what you do all day, and you say work sometimes, it disadvantages you. Just the way their minds work. I'd rather safely have PIP before I try for a job over 16 hours. And course, jobs under? Hardly any where I live. So it is very depressing. Thanks again nukecad.
Not too sure what Lighttouch is asking here, as we were only referring to UC.

nukecad
08-06-18, 14:29
they couldn't answer properly, could they? Too much bother to answer a specific question,
That's the fun of FoI's to the DWP.

Getting them to give a straight answer, an answer relevent to your request, or sometimes any answer at all, takes patience and some skill in the wording of your request.

If they spent as much effort in answering as they do in avoiding answers then it would reflect a bit better on them.

They are scared of getting caught lying, as they were when they told the W&P Select Committee they didn't have certain figures but gave those same figures to a Press Association FoI.

I expect to have to make at least one request for internal review on every request to get some kind of FoI answer that is even meaningful these days.

Lighttouch
13-01-19, 11:02
I claimed Mobility High rate for DLA and worked in the private and public sector - it's not an issue if it's an office type job.

I wouldn't have been able to work without a car. If you are unable to use public transport to get to work 'Access to Work' will offer you a taxi service to get there and back home.

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